+ Read the Interview with Evonne Noble

Brandon Steele (Host): Hi, this is Brandon Steele. Welcome to the Mainsail Financial Group Podcast series, where we host industry experts and local professionals to help share some guidance and tips and tricks into the things that we don't necessarily get to focus on day to day. Today, we want to thank Evonne Noble for joining us to talk about family, finances, and money. Before we get into that, though, Evonne, can you tell us a little bit about where we're at and why?

Evonne Noble (Guest): Yeah, we're in my office at Puget Sound Psychotherapy, which is located in Madison Valley. We're a group of about 30 practitioners. So we consider ourselves a one-stop-shop for any of your family needs for counseling and medication management as well.

Brandon Steele:
Now, we just met down at Madison Kitchen, actually. So we were going to record there, but it was a little tight. So we came back up here, but great coffee.

Evonne Noble:
Great bakery. Great business, great people!

Brandon Steele: So thanks for having for joining us today. Evonne is actually the owner and CEO of Puget Sound Psychotherapy; she had shared their focus. And Evonne's, specifically, is really on individuals and families, about finances, but a lot more as well. And so we're really excited to have you on stage to talk a little bit about the difficulty with couples and money and all the challenges that come along with that.

Evonne Noble:
Yeah, I mean, you can probably imagine, maybe in the field that you're in, they come to your desk for a different financial need than they come to mine. But almost all couples, at some point, have some financial challenges. And really, pretty much every year when you get to taxes, when you get to saving or spending. Every year most couples report having at least one big financial blowout. If not reporting that, that is the core issue that they deal with. I wouldn't say that's all couples that money is number one, by any means. But money is security; money represents so many different things to different people. Money is our dreams; money is taking care of our children. So if any of our dreams, values, or ways we feel secure don't align, those conflicts come up when we're talking about how to spend or save dollars.

Brandon Steele:
And actually, that's exactly where I want to start. So maybe you can expand on that a little bit. Can you talk about how important these financial conversations are to a relationship just in general?

Evonne Noble:
Yeah. So to zoom out, I think financial conversations are a lot like any other core conversation. You're going to have someone you spend your life with, whether it's children, religion, or whatever values. So I would consider money one of the pillars of value. The more you talk about it in advance, as you move towards maybe a commitment or a really long life with someone. The more you talk about that in advance, the more you can prevent some of those problems, or at least know your areas of struggle where you have differences.

I'd say, in general, when people have differences, we don't often know how to deal with that. So if you come from a culture and a family that is very focused on saving, that is security that has been responsible, you know, you've got that Puritan work ethic. And maybe I come from a family that's in a different class, that money's been abundant. We've got money sitting in the bank, making money, spending as a way to be active in the community, a way to be philanthropic. All of a sudden, those two worldviews that might seem interesting, because they're different, can become emotionally challenging when we share that have those differences.

So I find that when I'm working with couples, those financial conversations haven't happened in the beginning. And they come up when they're in crisis. And maybe even when they've avoided the crisis. They've pushed them to the side; they've tried to get through those conversations. Maybe one of them has given up a little bit. And usually, by the time they come to me, unfortunately, it's when things have gotten pretty hot.

Brandon Steele:
So in that situation, because I think you're spot on. The reason a lot of these things come up is because of the different backgrounds, and how we were raised around money. So when you run into that situation, how can couples work through some of those challenges? Like what are some great ways to find out where those similarities and differences are?

Evonne Noble:
Well, I think it starts with knowing yourself. So it's sort of like doing an inventory. What are my beliefs about money? What did my family teach me, explicitly or implicitly, through our culture? What experiences have I had around money? If you've gone through anything traumatic, homelessness or losing financial resources, or any kind of financial devastation, it really can create some financial trauma. And if I know what my financial fears are, my financial values are, [and] what my dreams are for the future. And I kind of call it your money mindset. You know, that's informed by your family, informed by what you want, and what you're dreaming for. That kind of gives you a sense of how to start to talk to somebody else.

But if you don't know where you're coming from, unfortunately, then you're just in a reactive cycle. And that's one of the things I help couples with is look at the cycle that they get stuck in. And what I mostly do is first do what you're asking, how do I help them, and how do they prevent that? I start to get clear: what are my values, needs, and fears? Because if I can just share them from a place of ownership, I'm not in a reality battle with you about the right way to do things; I can just say, "Wow, for me having X amount of the savings in the bank is what's really going to create a sense of comfort to do the dreams you just talked about." And there's less to battle around when you're clear and then coming from a compassionate place. So I'd say one is know yourself.

Number two is money. Money, more than anything, seems to put people in an adversarial position, us against each other, or ideas are in competition, versus anus, you know, tackling the shared problem. So if I think that I'm right, or if I feel like your ideas are somehow a threat, that adversarial position makes it really hard to listen. Really hard to be compassionate playing defense. Yeah, the defense. So rather than getting, because the offense is still defense, right?

Rather than those two positions, which is usually criticize or defend, I try to help people think about how do you want your partner to feel after you talk about money? After this conversation, or the one you're planning to have about retirement or about college savings. How do you want them to walk away feeling? Because often, the power differential that comes in if one person earns more comes from more money, or any other disparity, maybe someone lost their job. The person in the higher power position sometimes doesn't even realize how aggressive they can be. And that's even more important to have that compassionate lens. And that sense of us. How do I want us to feel when we talk about money?

Brandon Steele:
Okay, yeah. And actually, I was going to go there as well. So it sounds like, when you have that situation, I think a lot of people, to your point, don't recognize when that's happening. And so it sounds like stepping back, and really just asking yourself that question, "How do I want my partner to feel from this conversation?" is how you would suggest the answer to that?

Evonne Noble: Absolutely. And plan being intentional. If money is easy to talk about, this obviously doesn't apply to them. But if it is, and it is, for most people, just like any hard topic, I recommend you plan a time where you're not distracted. You're not dealing with kids or calls from work. You prepare for that meeting, and you think about what's my personal goal for the meeting, both content and agenda, but equally as important: "How do we want the other person to feel about what we're doing?" And then have a time constraint? Because that can be dangerous when things just kind of loop out of control? And then at the end of the meeting, having a plan for if it's a temporary compromise we're making to try something? When are we going to come back to it and address this again? Because these aren't usually discrete, one-time conversations.

Brandon Steele:
Yeah. And so how often would you suggest that those meetings are held?

Evonne Noble:
Well, the biggest one, I'd say again, that before is better. So prevention is going to save everyone a ton of problems. So if you're moving towards commitment, at any stage, gosh, we're becoming exclusive as a couple. How do we even spend money on dates? You know, who pays for what, how do we deal with that? We're gonna go on a trip together. Oh, now we're moving in, or we're getting married. So those preventative big-picture conversations were ideal.

And then otherwise, let's, let's imagine you've had those or you've gotten through some hard times, you can think about things like we do financially, you can think about things in quarters, and also monthly and annually. So you might think annually, where are we going on a bigger picture conversation? Quarterly? Are we trending in the way we thought we would? Or do we need to course correct a little? And then monthly, hopefully, someone is, or both people are doing the more hands-on the ground checking of the numbers. Are we spending within our budget? Are we moving towards our goals? So I think having those cyclical patterns, at least once a month, at least every quarter, absolutely every year, can be a way to stay ahead of things or on top of things.

Brandon Steele:
And to me, as a financial advisor, that works very, I would say, probably aligns with how you do things.

So I guess, along those lines, you brought up earlier that a lot of times you'll see one person in a little bit more of like a power position or somebody who takes that on a little bit more. That's usually the case is that there is one out of a couple that takes on more than financial.

Evonne Noble:
Well, I guess there are two types of power positions. One is who does what and who knows what because having an imbalance in financial knowledge is the number one reason I see couples; one person knows a little more as a little more excited. And then that's great for the other person who's less knowledgeable or less excited. But over time, that other partner can become disenfranchised, fearful, or avoidant, and then this person can either become resentful or more righteous that this is the way to do things.

The second way I see power differentials is where there just truly is more money. Like one person lost their job, maybe they decided to have one person stay home with the children. So how we value in our culture, home labor versus dollars that come in is a really important conversation for people to have. And if you're on that end, where you've got the bigger dollars attached to your paycheck, unconsciously, we bring privilege to that position. And I've been guilty of that myself. "Oh, well, if I'm making this, then I certainly have a say in this." And all of a sudden, they become that voice of righteousness, rather than, but how's that gonna make you feel that I'm talking about this like that? That's not a very "we" attitude.

Brandon Steele: Yeah, well, as an advisor, I've seen that time and time again. So we really strive to make sure that we're asking the other spouse over and over again the same questions that we're asking the one that's answering more directly.

Evonne Noble: I bet because someone probably just steps in.

Brandon Steele:
Yep. So, with couples and how they handle money, do you have any suggestions like more, where am I going, like more strategically, on how they can kind of help to be a whole, but also create some sort of like independence? If that makes sense?

Evonne Noble:
Yeah, different couples handle that differently. There's kind of two common models. One is the everything is shared, model. And we align our goals around what comes in; however, whoever is bringing in what, whatever that looks like. And we allocate buckets out of that. And it's usually helpful to have some unless there are couples that have a lot of abundance that don't always have to make as many of these decisions. So not only there's some fortune with that flexibility, in terms of options in life, but also within the relationship. There are less dollars that are being as tightly managed. But most people are managing dollars to some degree, and most people want some degree of freedom and autonomy.

So if you're doing this model, where everything comes into one master account, and we've allocated this for our mortgage, and this for pets, this for trips, and this for a rainy day fund, how much each person spends on hobbies. Luxury items can become, as you probably have seen, a bit of a place of contention. You know, someone points out someone's spending habits, well, I buy this, but you buy that. So I think when you can have an added discretionary fund, that gives people some freedom and gives a sense of, I can spend what I want. Another way people will do it is to have a cap, like if it's below X amount of dollars, we each have the autonomy to make those decisions. If it's above that amount, we'll consult with each other.

The other model that can work for people is the two separate buckets model, where people and this usually only works for two-income families or a one-income family where they've decided to allocate maybe like allowances. And so those [people] in those models, pay into whatever is agreed and shared, but the default is separate. So then you're agreeing to pay for rent or housing, pay for utilities, share the savings costs, or share [the] money for the children.

So it's sort of the inverse, then they're agreeing to what's a shared expense. And then they usually move that into a shared account, and then everything else is mine. And if there's an imbalance there, you want to do an expensive trip, but I don't have that kind of discretionary income, then that becomes an "our" decision again. And I don't know if you've seen that kind of pattern. And I've heard different things, of course, from different people. And I'm wondering if you see a trend in if one of those models you think creates more problems than the other?

Brandon Steele:
I'll go the happier route. The one that I've seen firsthand, anyways, that has worked the best has been the, like, a communal bucket. So all those, you know, stuff they handle is paid through that. And then, almost like the allowance version, you were talking about luxuries and whatever. So they'll cap like, I'm just making up numbers, 1000 bucks each month that they can spend on whatever the heck they want. Nobody's checking each other's [spending]; everything else goes [into a] communal bucket. And that's how they make the family decision. So I've seen that work really well.

Evonne Noble:
That makes a lot of sense to me. Again, everyone has different values of what "ours" means. And "mine" means. But even with an "us" mentality, most of us want some autonomy.

Brandon Steele:
Yeah, exactly. And I think this comes back to what we were talking about earlier, where it's like, there are certain things that I think need to be discussed as a family. But you know, there is going to be somebody who takes a little more control. And so how, like, how much detail do you really need to touch on? And I guess I'll actually ask that to you like, you know, you go back to the monthly quarterly annual, how much detail do you recommend they actually dig in?

Evonne Noble: So I'm going to equivocate? On the one hand, I think that the more people know about money, it's a way to know what security you have. And eventually, not knowing usually creates problems. I also am very phenomenological. I really respect if somebody's value is, "I trust my partner implicitly. I don't want to; it's such a gift to not be involved. That is so stressful for me." What I usually do is ask people to learn more about what "need" means for them. "Oh, it's stressful." "It's scary." "I have math trauma." I know that some say, "Would you make me go back to school to learn math?" or, "Would you make me learn to drive a stick shift?"

No, but what are the consequences? So let's just go with the driving metaphor. You don't want to drive, no problem, but then you might be limited in where you can go. You don't want to learn how the money's been budgeted or spent, or what accounts you have. Okay, let's look at some of the problems that might come up down the road. And I feel like that's my job, learning what people's needs are. So the need is: I don't want to be overwhelmed. And their way of trying to meet that need sometimes creates problems they don't anticipate. So helping them look at those potential trade-offs can sometimes say, "Oh, maybe there's a different way to meet my need not to be overwhelmed."

But I don't want to deal with if we ever get to a place where, you know, 50% of couples divorce, where I'm in a powerless position, we're ending this relationship, and I have no clue what money is there. Or not uncommon, I'll deal with people at the retirement stage of life. And one person will have managed the money, and the other person has no idea what's okay to spend. And you've probably seen this in that chapter where one person doesn't realize they have millions of dollars because they've been living frugally to get the millions of dollars, right? Yeah. So I really, trying to help people look at the trade-off, and maybe by coming to us in different ways, or different rules, make more informed choices.

Brandon Steele: So I swear, you're like reading like into the next chapter, you just lead me right there. So in the event of death or divorce, if there's a spouse that maybe doesn't know the ins and outs or isn't as familiar as maybe, they should be for some of that stuff? How do you start work [on it]? Like, where do you typically recommend they, you know, start to pick up some of those skills?

Evonne Noble: If they know something's coming, and that's a nice thing, just like estate planning, and well, planning is so important. It's a gift to everyone you love to have your affairs in order or your wishes known. Preemptive is best when possible. So if you've known that the relationship is heading towards an end, and you can work amicably towards talking about those things, the divorce process will force you to itemize them anyways.

So if you can do it, and like, "Let's care for each other with a compassionate ending," that's a nice way to just for the person who's less informed to know: here are the accounts that we have, what will be going with you or with me. Or, "Oh, my spouse might be dying? What are our accounts, and what were they set up for?" So first, it's just a broad view of like, what's out there, you know, a lot of people don't even know the difference of different types of investment accounts. And you're probably educating them a lot on that, to help them understand the different tax implications or what's available to them. Like cash on hand now, versus something that they pulled from a certain retirement fund [that] would have certain penalties.

So an overview of what the accounts are, then what's their new budget, for someone who is going to be the surviving spouse, their budget often increases beyond what they know what to do with, or at least gather more options. If that's a later life stage, again, when people who come to us are probably in a more privileged and advantaged position to be having money to manage. Certainly, a loss of a spouse could be devastation for a family at an earlier stage of life if they don't have life insurance and there's no income. So I don't think that demographic doesn't probably come to your office quite as often. I think money is a privilege that gets you into more services to then do better by money. So I just want to acknowledge that we're talking about a certain segment of society.

But if you're dealing with this all of a sudden, I'm, you know, a widow, which is, because of gender death actuarial statistics, most common, I think, having someone by your side, so I often will refer people as they come to me for financial coaching. I'll refer them, if they can afford it, to someone like yourself or to another type of advisor that can help them plan long term. Especially if they do want to stay in that like less, "I don't want to have to manage it myself" position. Well, then, let's get a professional that has a good fiduciary responsibility to help care for you. But I'd say more often, people tend to want to step into that because they realize how vulnerable they were by not knowing.

Brandon Steele: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you often find that the less known parts are the details or the bigger picture? Do you see what I'm saying?

Evonne Noble: I do. I think the bigger picture people often talk about it but in such vagary that they think they're talking about the same thing, and then they get into conflict. So, "Oh, we were talking about saving for a house, but we didn't talk about exactly how much we knew we wanted money for retirement, but I didn't know."

I mean, honestly, a fight I've been witness to is, "I didn't know you were saving that much!" As someone living in an austerity regime, feeling purposeful but thinking this is ridiculous. So the big picture things people seem like they have talked about, but not and I imagine you see this, not where they've actually gotten a clear plan together. And they really need help from a professional to do that. I think that if I had to pick one area to learn the details, because that's day-to-day choices and management, and that's where I'm really excited to be able to refer people to your online classes. It's one of the things that when people come to me, they need more help than those who are trying to get educated on just basic skills and literacy. So what you're going to offer, I think, is really needed.

Brandon Steele:
Yeah, yeah, we're excited. We're excited to launch that, for sure. So to get going and kind of like start to wrap up here; I want to back up like very, very broadly. And just ask you a very actionable item, what is something that couples who are just trying to work through this, trying to make sure they're on the same page? What's something that they can take away and implement? Like, right out of the gate?

Evonne Noble:
My guess is almost everyone who's listening has not had a financial meeting? Or maybe not, maybe your demographic is really on top of it, and they have regular meetings. But I'd say plan a financial meeting, make an agenda for that meeting.

What are the things that you feel like you both know and agree on and confirm that that's true? And what are the things you haven't talked about? Whether it's, oh, you know, now we're getting ready to have a child, let's plan for that financially. Oh, we're moving towards, you know, slowing down towards retirement. Let's talk about that.

So putting that meeting on the calendar, getting the agenda there, and going into it with that mindset of how do I want the other person to feel, and maybe the first meeting, not even having a goal of any action, that at the meeting school is just to understand the other person, understanding precedes all good action. And it could also prevent the battle for what to do to come up, the longer people stay. And this is honestly what the majority of what I help people do even around dollars is staying longer and listening and understanding. So if I told them one thing: Go in with listening, understanding, and empathy.

Brandon Steele:
I think that's really good. We've seen even, you know, people come into our office for a meeting and request, not at our request, their request that it's just the spouse, just the husband, just like whoever. And, you know, unfortunately, I think what it leads to is what you're talking about, where it really starts to spread wider and wider that discrepancy between the two spouses' knowledge. So I think coming back to that, whether it's with somebody like us, or on their own, whatever.

Evonne Noble:
Just doing it is doing. Exactly. Make the appointment. Do it.

Brandon Steele:
So if anybody has any questions for you, what's a good way for them to get in touch with you?

Evonne Noble:
Yeah, they're welcome to reach out to me directly at evonnenoble.com.

Brandon Steele: Great. Thanks so much for joining us today. There is really good stuff in there.

Evonne Noble:
People need this. We need financial literacy earlier in school. We need it around these key moments around relationships. So it's a great opportunity to talk about it.

Brandon Steele: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again. And thank you all for joining us today. We hope you found something helpful. As always, if you have any questions for us, you can email us directly at info@mainsailfg.com.